8 Replies Latest reply on Apr 5, 2016 7:52 PM by yu.yanfeng

    Last idea for Hyperlynx

    yu.yanfeng

      It seems that Mentor Graphics have lost the last change to get back in Signal Integrity and Power Integrity for ever while Ansys, Cadene, Keysight are renewing thier stuff.  I don't know what exactly Mentor team think about Hyperlynx.  However, I think following items Mentor Graphics may take

       

      1) Mergere Hypelrynx and Hyperlynx DRC A new GUI and API framework is a must.

      2) Add Flo.pcb into Hyperlynx. Ansys Siwave now have  icepack solver in Siwave.

      3) refine Nimbic(accuracyand speed) technologies and the interface for ECAD data

      4) Accqures Simbeor to provide a fast GHZ channel synthesis solution.

      5) refine integration between XpeditonPCB and Hyperlynx .

       

       

      yanfeng

        • 1. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
          patrick_carrier

          Hi Yanfeng--

          Thank you for your many suggestions.  I am a little confused by your initial comments since you and your team seem to be prolific users of HyperLynx, and I think thousands of HyperLynx customers would disagree that we have "lost the last change".  We take great care in determining tradeoffs on where to invest our time and energy to develop a tool that is the most useful for our customers.

           

          As for your specific suggestions:

          1.  Merging HyperLynx DRC and SI/PI has been discussed, but I think you should keep in mind that the two tools, while complementing each other, are targeted at very specific tasks.  HyperLynx SI/PI is a simulation tool, whereas HyperLynx DRC does electrical design rule checking.  As such, the GUIs have been tailored to the specific tasks.  HyperLynx DRC has a number of separate viewing windows to make it as easy as possible to navigate through DRCs and view them on the board, whereas HyperLynx SI/PI has more menus and wizards to guide users through the simulation process.

          2.  We have an integrated thermal solution built into DC Drop, which is incredibly fast.  It is a non-CFD solution so it is not as general-purpose as Flo.pcb, but if you have a typical cooling solution on your board it works very well, and the tradeoff for performance is well worth it.  We have made some improvements to the trace/plane heating algorithm in HyperLynx 9.3, and have gotten excellent correlation to a couple of customer test cases.  If you haven't tried out PI/Thermal co-simulation in HyperLynx 9.3, give it a try.  The fast thermal sim capability coupled with even more improvements in the DC Drop simulator performance makes the co-simulation very fast, orders of magnitude faster than any other co-sim solution in the market.

          3. and 4. I would put the accuracy and speed of the Nimbic tools up against any other 3D field solver on the market.  That is why we acquired them two years ago, and have been integrating them with our other analysis tools.  The integration with HyperLynx BoardSim was greatly enhanced in HyperLynx 9.3, including the ability to export a 3D area and automatically generate appropriate ports, making it very easy to add a 3D model to your GHZ channel.  On top of that, we have added the ability to pattern-match 3D areas on the board, meaning you can re-use 3D models (which take time to solve even in a fast 3D solver) throughout the board on similar structures, drastically enhancing efficiency.  Here are a couple of videos on those features:

          https://www.mentor.com/pcb/resources/overview/simulating-multigigabit-serial-links-with-2d-and-3d-models-213836ec-5d7f-4a41-9a64-87a7bc8130a4

          https://www.mentor.com/pcb/resources/overview/accelerating-multigigabit-serial-link-simulation-with-3d-area-pattern-matching-dfe7eb8d-1e80-4945-8e69-aa2e032add34

          5.  We are constantly improving our integration between HyperLynx and Xpedition - if you have some specific suggestions please log some Bright Ideas if you haven't already done so at:  Mentor Ideas for Simulation and Analysis

          In HyperLynx 9.3, we added to this by adding DC Drop to the Xpedition Analysis Client, which already had integration with HyperLynx DRC.  If you are unfamiliar with this, it allows you to view analysis results directly in Xpedition as hazards, so that the layout person can directly correct any problems found by the analysis.

           

          Thank you for your participation in the Mentor Communities.

          --Pat

          • 2. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
            yu.yanfeng

            Pat, I have delete my comment and I will discuss it with you via e-mail.

            yanfeng

            • 3. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
              yu.yanfeng

              At this moment , I am free of working load, so I am happy to eleborate each topic in a bit of detail.

               

              First let's begin on the uniting Hyperlynx DRC and Hyperlynx:

               

              1 whatever you do DRC check or do simulation, first thing you need to translate you CAD database first.

               

              This is common task for both HyperlynxDRC and Hyperlynx

               

              2 after importing CAD database, you shoud do some setting for models or modifcations on stackup.

               

              This is common task for both HyperlynxDRC and Hyperlynx

               

              3 as you mentioned that Hyperlynx 9.3 now use Hyperlynx DRC to find  similiar 3D areas automaticaly.

               

              Why user  have to run install and run a seperated applicaiton to find 3D areas?

              So uniting Hyperlynx and Hyperlynx DRC can make this type of simulation more easy and in a straight way,isn' it?

               

              4  a hiearchy tree for objects(contraints/netlcass/parts etc) make navigation of object more easy and fast.

              Hyperynx do not support a hiearchy tree( and I have posted an idea for hiearchy object tree in Hyperlynx), but HyperlynxDRC do have hierachy tree.

               

              5 to run batch simulaiton overnight, you need the scripts to support to setting models, selection nets and produce reports etc. For all of that, you ned the tool

              have the APIs to make work done automaticallty.

              Because Hyperlynx have rich APIs than Hyperlynx, so uniting Hyperlynx and HyperlynxDRC make it possible to run batch simulation by scripts.

               

              So, uniting HyperlynxDRC and Hyperlynx provide much advatages for users and Mentor graphcis(saving your R/d resources). isn't It?

               

              yanfeng

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              • 4. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
                yu.yanfeng

                let's discuss why adding Flo.pcb into Hyperlynx is an good idea.

                 

                Today's PBA have chips with ten watts, so the poor modeling of Hyperlynx thermal isn't relevant at all. If someone who using Hyperlynx thermal  told me that he get good  corrleation, I think his board may don't need any thermal analysis at all.  Also you can do some testcases, you should find Hyperlynx thermal's result is so ridiculuous due to it's simple assumption.

                 

                Board designer not only do DC drop Analysis with trace's self heating, alos need to do full board analysis. So then need a CFD solver. That's why i suggest Mentor to consider add Flo.pcb sovler into Hyperlynx.

                 

                yanfeng

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                • 5. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
                  yu.yanfeng

                  Why I say Nimbic(accuracyand speed) need to refine it's accuracy and speed ,including refine interface for ECAD data?

                   

                  Nimbic is a MOM solver, it can provide accuracy result while keep  fast speed, compared to FEM solver in general. However, today's FEM solver such as Ansys HFSS 3D layout solver run very fast also.  I don't see Nimbic solver have any advantage over Ansys HFSS 3D Layout solver. Mentor claime Nimbic have 10X speedup, but I think it should means Nimbic vursus some very old-technology FEM solver or open source codes which are no Multi-threads no disctribution computing or no DDM.  Do Mentor Graphics provide some data about Speed benchmarks? I don't find any benchmarks yet and some of testcases indictate Nimbic solver isn't so fast.

                   

                  Interface to ECAD is poor in quality because there is no sanity and repair utility the interface ,so most of times importing overal layout get failed( Of course, it can import simple ECAD data). Today's PCB is very complex, there are thansonds shapes, curved traces, staged vias, so the interface need to have automatic sanity and repair mechanism to get data in.

                   

                  For accuracy, I  will discuss it late based on concept validation testcase.

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                  • 6. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
                    yu.yanfeng

                    About the suggestion for Simbeor's acquistion.

                     

                    For next generation of backplane design, designer put thier much efforts on following items:

                     

                    1) material DK/Df validation. They will modified vendor's datasheet parameter based on iteration betwen 3D solver and test pcb vehicle

                    2) pad entry tap validation. They like to design some tap shape to smooth impdence while trance go into via/pin hole based on iteration between 3D sovler and test pcb vehicle

                    3) rougness'effect/Fibre effect validation.

                    4) de-embedded

                     

                    Most of Hypelynx user will turn to Keysigh ADS and Ansys HFSS/SIwave for 25G passive channel design because they don't belive Hyplynx is capable to deal with it. those designer wasted so much on how to use Ansys HFSS and how to do de-embedded and how to understand results the get from the solver because ther are lack of EM knowdges. Simbor is a good tool for passive channel design and i think it 's very complementary to Hyperlynx .By combing Nimbic solver and Simbeor, I guess a new Hypelrynx may provide what backplaen designer they need. That's why I suggest Mentor consider to acquire Simbeor.

                     

                    I think it may be win-win to Mentor /Simberian and Hypelrynx user.

                     

                    yanfeng

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                    • 7. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
                      yu.yanfeng

                      What is my mean about refine integration between ExpediditionPCB and Hypelynx?

                       

                      Yes,you are right. Mentor have put some focus on  integration between ExpediditionPCB and Hypelynx. running DC-drop and DRC check directly in XpeditionPCB environment is supported and we like it. Sometimes, We also hope late XpeditionPCB suppot to run Valor NPI check in a similar way.

                       

                      I just mean refine further to a new level that XpeditionPCB user doesn't need to leave thier familiar XpeditionPCB layout environment for doing most types of simulation if they like to do it in Xpeditionpcb environment.  Additionally, I mean it can support to run simulation in private cloud so XpeditionPCB user don't have to install Hyperlynx, Valor NPI in thier desktop at all.

                       

                      Yanfeng

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                      • 8. Re: Last idea for Hyperlynx
                        yu.yanfeng

                        It's interested that Mentor just annouces "Mentor Graphics New HyperLynx Release Integrates Signal and Power Integrity, 3D-Electromagnetic Solving, and Fast Rule Checking into One Unified Environment" on thier web site.

                        yanfeng