1 2 First Previous 19 Replies Latest reply on Apr 13, 2011 10:59 AM by Vern_Wnek

    SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data

    yu.yanfeng

      If you use Expeditionpcb 2007.2/3/5, I think you will ofter get calls from your pcb vendors, they complains they find SIP(self-intersecting polygon) in your gerber data and thier CAM system can't get it repaired and sometimes they complain the data can't be read into the cam system. This is true.

       

      If your gerber data in 5:5 mm or 5:5 mil format, CAM350 Pre-V10 often fails to read in due to the SIPs in the gerber data, sometime gerbtool 13.6 also fails. Orbetech's Genesis 2000 9.02 can read in those data but it can't correctly interpret it(some antipad will missed in plane and conduct to shorts).Even you set the format as 3:2 mm or 3:3 mil, you still can't eliminate the SIPs in your gerber output, however, it help to avoid Genesis 2000's interpret errors. Sometime, fab vendor ask you to provide R274D format instead of R274X. When you try to ouput R274D format data, you will find Expedition PCB don't support to generate Dcodes file automatically based on your design, so you have to creat one to get your film out. It's a time-cosuming and some of designer don't how to create a correct-format Dcodes file.Another problem is that you will encouter a very slow plane data generation if using negative planes.

       

      To avoid these problems, You have to trim the cell to keep not exceed 2 digit precision.

       

       

      Yanfeng

        • 1. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
          yu.yanfeng

          Attached is the sample gerber from Expeditionpcb 2007.2.

          Data format 5:5 mm,Positive Plane

          Help me to verify this symptom in your side.

          Thanks in advance

          Yanfeng

          • 2. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
            yu.yanfeng

            We have logged SRs many times in the supportnet. Today, I re-log it in the supportnet and get a reply from Mentor CSE. Here is the reply:

             

            This is regarding the Service Request in Subject, I could reproduce this problem in the previous SR. And, I have already logged this issue as Defect (# : dts0100351869).
            I have provided a testcase to Engineering for the investigation. I will also share your comments from this SR by assigning this as well.
            As a workaround (discussed earlier), Please change the "iol_274x_ill_polygon" to "no" in Valor.

             

            It's so funny. If setting the "iol_274x_ill_polygon" to "no", it means Genesis 2000 will refuse to read in those data with SIPs for ever. I really know why what is the problem and hope Mentor Engineering begin to recover it a.s.a.p. From my first report, it have passed 2 years long.

             

             

            Yanfeng

            • 3. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
              yu.yanfeng

              No others encoutered this type of problem?

              Yanfeng

              • 4. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
                Wim Creyghton

                Hi Yanfeng,

                 

                I also encountered this type of problem.

                Most off the time when I create output files I create ODB++ format with positive planes.

                I know that some Gerber problems are CAM350 related, but never the less the output should be correct.

                 

                I have created an Idea on the Mentor Idea-site "Fix Gerber and ODBG/ODB++ output related bugs immediately and not wait until next release".

                https://na5.brightidea.com/ct/ct_a_view_idea.bix?c=4A483461-DF62-4727-A124-E53A6E3A46E5&idea_id={229FF4FE-50B0-40C0-992F-F18AFCE8A436}

                We should all vote for this idea.

                In my point off view output should always be 100% correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                It is very strange that we have to post an Idea like this to get good output.

                For the software designers it should be Prio #1.

                 

                Regards,

                Wim.

                • 5. Re: SIP question: Expedition pcb's gerber data
                  yu.yanfeng

                  Hi Wim,

                   

                  Thank you very much for comfiring this symptom. On April 24, We will meet Mentor's New bussiness manager, and plan to list this issue as one of key issues ,also I will put my votes to your idea.

                   

                  Yanfeng

                  • 6. Re: SIP question: Expedition pcb's gerber data
                    Wim Creyghton

                    Hi Yanfeng,

                     

                    A little bit late, but how did the new business manager react to this big problem?

                     

                    Again we got some production problems with a customer off ours.

                    He produced the boards through an other channel and there they used CAM350 for the Gerbers.

                    All the produced boards where not ok due to the the Gerbers read-in by CAM350.

                    I advised them to use the ODB++ files.

                     

                    Mentor should solve this problem a.s.a.p.

                     

                    Wim.

                    • 7. Re: SIP question: Expedition pcb's gerber data
                      yu.yanfeng

                      Wim,

                       

                      This month, I met with the new manager. He confirmed Mentor will solve this severe bug soon and I got notification from the supportnet, said Mentor engineering initially plan to solve the problem in Expeditionpcb 2008.

                       

                      Yanfeng

                      • 8. Re: SIP question: Expedition pcb's gerber data
                        Wim Creyghton

                        Yanfeng,

                         

                        Ok thanks.

                        So they "initially plan to solve the problem in Expedition 2008"!!!!!

                        So this would be 2010 or in Mentor-time speaking 2011.

                        I hope that I can wait until Expedition 2008 is released.

                        Maybe we will switch to other PCB-Design software and leave Mentor.

                        This is a very big problem which in my eyes should all ready be solved.

                         

                        Wim.

                        • 9. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
                          chris.smith

                          We have experienced the same problem on a design that was 2007.9.1. THOUSANDs of SIPs . Our vendor uses some macros in Valor and has to resort to manual review also and we had received a bad board with a large exposed area on the mask because of this. What is mentor's response to this. Its now 2011?

                          • 10. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
                            yu.yanfeng

                            During my experience with Mentor,  It seems that Mentor don't know what is  root cause for the issue and what is the best method to get rid of the bug.

                            I name a few serious bugs that  me have put much efforts to let Mentor know

                             

                            1)  Gerber SIP issue

                            2)  Metric-unit ODB database make Valor failed whiling doing netlist analyzer

                            3) fabmaster ourtput have no soldermask make this file is no useful at all

                            4) Faked Gencad output which Valor or CAMCAD all interpret bottom pads as top pads, only CAM350 can properly interprets it.

                            5) Expeditoncpb- Hyperlynx interface can't properly treats ict testpoints, all ict testpoints get deleted and make net traces with ict testpoint broken,no really simulation can get done.

                             

                             

                            Yanfeng

                            • 11. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
                              Vern_Wnek

                              Yanfeng,

                               

                              I would suggest that you speak with Support more closely before making statements like this. In a recent past life prior to Mentor, I was a PCB Design Team Manager, and...

                               

                              1. In 12 years of using Expedition, I have never been contacted by any fab suppliers of Gerber SIP issues in my datasets.

                               

                              2. With over 50% of my teams designs done in Metric, and Valor In-house usage prior to release to Fab, our Valor Checker had no issues with Metric Data.

                               

                              3. Fabmaster output is for point to point bare board test setup, Soldermask has never been a requirement in the file.

                               

                              4. All of my designs required Gencad output for our fab/assembly vendors - No issues were ever reported on pads on incorrect layers - on 1000s of designs.

                               

                              5. I cannot answer, as I am not a Hyperlynx user - Sorry.

                               

                              Good Luck,

                              Vern Wnek

                              • 12. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
                                yu.yanfeng

                                Vern,

                                That is the problem even you as a 12 yeares-experences deigner thinkithere is no problem there. I am so bussy this moment, and I will teach you how to find the problems using Mentor's simple training data.

                                 

                                Yanfeng

                                • 13. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
                                  Vern_Wnek

                                  Yanfeng,

                                   

                                  I am happy to learn from you, and I want you to know that I do not suggest that you do not experience the issues. I just state my experience is that I have not. It quite possibly could be setup issues when the data is read into Valor on that side, or a number of other issues.

                                   

                                  Feel free to enlighten me with what you are seeing in detail, and as I am busy also, I will be happy to look into your findings more closely if warranted.

                                   

                                  We are here to help, this is why I do suggest more closely reviewing the issues with the Support Desk. I do see you have been in touch with them before, and they were unable to reproduce the issue. But again, feel free to provide more info so Mentor can help you correct the issues.

                                   

                                  Feel free to provide me with your email should you wish to correspond directly.

                                   

                                  Good Luck,

                                  Vern Wnek

                                  • 14. Re: SIP problems in Expedition pcb's gerber data
                                    yu.yanfeng

                                    Hi Vern,

                                    The data is derived from EE 7.9.0 online training data. you can see every symptom

                                    Yanfeng

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