3 Replies Latest reply on Feb 15, 2010 7:24 AM by avjohn

    Scout numbers sheets differently in EE2007 than it does in ePD2005.


      Scout numbers sheets differently in EE2007 than it does in ePD2005.   Flat designs are not a problem, it's the hierarchial designs where this  is an issue.


      This isn't so much a problem on new designs, the  problem occurs when we do an ECO.  From my understanding, the sheet  numbers should not change when we do an ECO.  We usally use the  Page-number file to control this, especially for our old legacy library  designs.  One issue is that the EE2007 version of Scout doesn't reuse  the attributes/properties that were used by the ePD2005 version of  Scout.  In the program that we've written to prepare an ePD2005 design  for EE2007, I go through the sch files and remove all of the properties  that were added by the ePD2005 version of Scout.  When the user migrates  the design, all of the Scout properties are gone from the design and  the user is required to re-run Scout to re-populate the properties.   Because the algorithm that determine how the sheets were numbered was  changed, the sheet numbers will have changed.  Now the user will have to  look at the ePD2005 design's PDF file to determine the sheet numbers,  build a Page-number file and rerun scout.  On a large hierarchical  design, this could take at least couple of hours to fix and is non-value  added work.


      We figure that about 10 percent of our designs are  hierarchical although this number is growing.  We do approximately 8000  ECO's a year.  If 800 of them are hierarchial, as we transition to  EE2007 and migrate the designs, we will have done at least 1600 hours of  non-value added work.  It'll probably take us 5 years to transition all  our designs to EE2007.  that's 8000 hours of non-value added work.  At  $75/hour for a PCB designer doing the ECO, Mentor will make our company  incur $600,000 of non-value added work over the transition period.  All  because Mentor decided to change the algorithm that Scout uses to number  sheets.  How many other companies are having to go through this effort? 


      This points to an ongoing problem with the SDD engineering  groups. From this customer's perception, they have no clue, nor do they  care how customers are using their products.  Until that problem is  addressed, we are still going to encounter these types of issues and  continue to do non-value added work by both the customer and Mentor to  resolve them.



        • 1. Re: Scout numbers sheets differently in EE2007 than it does in ePD2005.



            At  $75/hour for a PCB designer doing the ECO? In China,  $5 per hour is enought, even you can hire skillfull designer in $2 per hour.




          • 2. Re: Scout numbers sheets differently in EE2007 than it does in ePD2005.



            There has not been any conscious change by engineering to the sheet ordering algorithm used by SCOUT but the significant changes to the 2007 DxDesigner infrastructure and database coupled with the enhanced support for sheet names instead of and as well as sheet numbers etc. can possibly lead to different results as the numbering scheme is different. The algorithm was never published and the advice has always been to use the page number file to deliver consistent results. If Rockwell Collins require the same numbering scheme as their previous designs you should investigate the use of this file to drive SCOUT.

            Please feel free to contact Customer Support as they have the required expertise to help in this case.

            Best Regards,


            • 3. Re: Scout numbers sheets differently in EE2007 than it does in ePD2005.



              We have been using the Page number file for many years now.  I think we may have been the first company to ask for this feature.  We would like to use this feature to solve this problem except there are issues with Scout that prevent us from doing this.


              It would be fairly easy to create a page number file for those hierarchical designs that did not have a file in ePD2005 but now need one in EE2007 except for one problem.  For some reason Scout puts the properties on the schematic differently in EE2007 than it did in ePD2005.  If I migrate one of our designs to EE2007 and run Scout on the design, I get two cross reference properties at every location.  That is not acceptable.  To fix this problem you need to remove the Scout properties from the design before the design is migrated.  Because of this issue, it makes it impossible to create a page number file for a design because there are no Scout properties in the design to create the data needed for the page number file.


              I also haven't found a method that would create the page number file before the properties are removed because I would open up the design in ePD2005 and have a program walk through the design and create the page number file.  You especially need to do this if the design is an instanced hierarchy design.  This is a problem because our users won't want to run the configurator to setup ePD2005, create the page number file, then run the configurator again to setup EE2007.  This would add non-value added time to the migration process.  Also what happens when Windows 7 is rolled out.  Will ePD2005 run on that OS?


              I can see a couple of solutions to this problem.


              1.  Fix EE2007 Scout so it reuses the properties that the ePD2005 Scout put on the schematic.  Then we wouldn't have to remove the properties before we migrate the design and we could write a program to create the page number file.


              2.  Figure out a method to create the page number file on the design before it's migrated with only having EE2007 installed on the user's PC.  The user should not have to have ePD2005 installed to create the page number file.


              If there are other solutions, I'd be interested in hearing them.