9 Replies Latest reply on May 5, 2011 7:27 PM by yu.yanfeng

    What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?


      To me, The big issue is Expedition can't support to do large design stablely.  If the design have the scale like below, It need nearly 2G memory footprint to load, and you will encount frequently unstable symptoms such as Exporting CCZ failed, Exporting Hyperlynx file failed etc.

      Which is yours?



      Expedition PCB - Version 2010.0.404.062
      Board Size Extents  ............ 14.20866 X 17.93701 (in)
      Route Border Extents  .......... 14.12866 X 17.85701 (in)
      Actual Board Area  ............. 2,54.85954 (in)
      Actual Route Area  ............. 2,52.295623 (in)

      Placement Areas: Name            Available         Required          Required/Available
                       Entire Board    5,09.71908 Sq. (in)2,97.341117 Sq. (in)58.33 %

      Pins  .......................... 58681
      Pins per Route Area  ........... 2,32.58826 Pins/Sq. (in)

      Layers  ........................ 24
      Nets  .......................... 9740
      Connections  ................... 47013
      Open Connections  .............. 967
      Differential Pairs  ............ 1306
      Percent Routed  ................ 97.94 %

      Netline Length  ................ 4,49.230705 (in)
      Netline Manhattan Length  ...... 5,44.885262 (in)
      Total Trace Length  ............ 2,80,81.597726 (in)

      Trace Widths Used (th)  ........ 0, 3.4, 3.5, 3.7, 3.75, 4, 4.1, 4.5, 5, 5.5, 7.5, 7.6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 20, 23, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50, 60, 1,10
      Vias  .......................... 36257
      Via Span  Name                   Quantity

      Parts Placed  .................. 13580
          Parts Mounted on Top  ...... 4462
      Through Holes  ................. 38769
          Holes per Board Area  ...... 1,52.119085 Holes/Sq. (in)
      Mounting Holes  ................ 38

        • 1. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?



          What version of the Software? What type of system are you running? What OS and how much RAM in your system? What is your Virtual Memory settings, is it at least the same size as your RAM, or Double if possible?


          There are many designers out there doing designs much larger than you list, and without issues as you state.


          I suggest contacting support to help track some of your issues if you are seeing them regularly.


          Thank You,

          Vern Wnek

          1 of 1 people found this helpful
          • 2. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?

            Hi Vern,


            My machine have 4G DDR2 800 RAM, 8G disk swap size, and use 2007.2. We saw versions after 2007.2 get more stable, but little improvement in the capacity. In fact,

            Other competitive tools such as Allegro all have this type of issue in capacity.  I guess the capacity is one of main reasons PCB designer switich tool from one to another.


            For this type of issue , We have discussed with local AE manager and businesss director year ago. They told me that a linux version of Expeditionpcb may be capable to deal with big designs, and there is very big design with 200K pins be designed using linux version in Japan.  I  was suspective on what they said, so I didn't try Linux vesion any more.



            • 3. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?



              Thanks for the extra info. You are correct that many of the players in the EDA industry can have issues with the designs we must provide today. As designs get larger, denser, and more Constraint complex, they will begin taxing most systems. As an Allegro user also, I have had many issues in the past with things like Dynamic Plane speed and problems with very large designs with lots of constraints - I cannot tell you what they are doing about it though.


              As for Mentor, I highly suggest moving to the 7.9 version, as it has significantly improved memory usage over the 2007.2 version. As I cannot suggest systems that you should use, I can however tell you the way I like to setup my systems for use.


              Now with the 7.9 version being fully supported moving forward on Windows 7, I suggest moving to Windows 7 64 bit OS. At Mentor I see many types of designs and design issues, and I have found the WIndows 7 OS and version 7.9 to be robust and very capable to a designers needs. If you use WIndows 7, I would suggest getting 8gb of RAM in your system though, as Windows does take some overhead and you can always use the extra RAM. Also, make your systems a Dual-Core system at a minimum.


              My system is a Dell Laptop, Intel Core i7 processor with 8gb Ram and a 250gb SSD Harddrive, and running WIndows 7 64 bit OS with version 7.9 Expedtion Enterprise tools. I would dare to use the word "Bulletproof", but this systems and version have worked pretty flawlessly for several months now.


              I cannot comment on the Linux version of the software, as I do not use it, but I have heard that the performance of my system is very comparable.


              Good Luck,

              Vern Wnek

              • 4. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?

                Hi Vern,


                the problem with such issues is, they do not apper regulary.

                We have single projects making trouble all the day (EE7.9.1):

                • crashing on FA
                • many out of syncs in Xtreme PCB
                • long saving time
                • and so on ...


                As I sad, those are single ones, but very annoying during the project phase of several month.

                We were not able to identify any root cause for this. Its somewhere hidden in the datastructure, becaus if we setup it new (DxDesigner, Expedition and CES)

                it shows the same behaviour again.


                Hardware is no criterion for improvement here.




                • 5. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?

                  Hi Andreas,

                  Much thanks! In fact, I have tested 2007.2 on 32G 4-way Xeon Server, and see no ieffect in capacity improvment. It seems a common issue.


                  • 6. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?



                    I would suspect that there are other issues going on in your designs, that could be due to many issues. I would suggest sending one of the problem designs to support and providing a timeline to when the issues occur. They can get to the root of the issues for you. I suspect also it is not Hardware, but only with your database can they help solve your issues.


                    Good Luck,

                    Vern Wnek

                    • 7. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?

                      Hello Andreas,


                      It’s unclear to me what your expectations are for your post. 


                      ·         Infrequent Crashes:  As of 7.9 we have introduced the ability to capture dump files from infrequent crashes.  Have you log any of these and supplied the dump files to allow engineering to look into your issues?

                      ·         Out of Sync:  You say you get may out of sync’s in Xtreme PCB.  How many are you getting and in what areas of the PCB design process?  Have you logged this with a testcase where an out of sync has occurred with the appreciate log files?

                      ·         Long Save Times:  Does this come and go or something consistent?  Most of the time this is caused by some environmental setup or process if this is inconsistent.


                      As your aware we take these types of issues very seriously and spend a lot of time focused on areas of stability and performance.  We work closely with our customers on such issues.



                      Jerry Suiter

                      Product Marketing Director Expedition / Xtreme PCB

                      • 8. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?

                        Hello Yanfeng,


                        Your running a very old version of the software.  Improvements to capacity was implemented in 2007.8 and includes 63% less memory used on initial loading and 12% to 50% improvement in load performances.  Also, the latest version of software, 7.9.1, supports Win7 64-bit providing up to 4GB of memory access for Expedition PCB.  These two changes to reduce memory consumption and support larger amounts of memory on 64-bit Win7 have removed any capacity issues for our customers largest designs.


                        Changing to a 32 GB Xeon Server will have no effect to the capacity for the specific version of software your on since it’s does not support extended memory.



                        Jerry Suiter

                        Product Marketing Director Expedition / Xtreme PCB

                        • 9. Re: What Is the Big Issue You Faced on Expedition pcb ?

                          Much thanks for confirming  that Expedition PCB can use 4G memory space on Windows X64. I will tested it late.